Page 2 - Beginner PHP Code Contest

It seems like you're trying to solve a problem before you even know if it will be a problem. I say do the contest however you feel is reasonable and learn from there.

FWIW, try working w/ CIS majors and CS majors that when asked to do blackbox test or to prove the viability of their solution on paper look at you mutely and ask what you mean.

Computer programming is simple.

Systems engineering (just like making bridges) requires planning.

And you have to be able to prove that the stresses your application will face are addressed.

A very good example would be the winning code in the previous maze contest (Generate a solution for a maze). There are boundary conditions that are not handled from what I've been able to prove using transformational grammar.

Just because I can't come up w/ a maze doesn't mean that the winning code can't fail.

I'm used to designing failsafe systems which operate on financial data, that in the event of a hurricane, flood or typhoon will gracefully shutdown and/or recover.

That being said, I wonder why it's so hard to find someont that can test an application without being shown how to test the application.

I mean, is it really that hard to ask for a coverage test when a certain number of lines have changed and other than that, a whitebox test for changes tthat involve less than that? Or a blackbox test for hard interfaces?

I'm probably speaking in gobbledygook for most people, but that's exactly the point.

I am not reinventing the wheel. I am using standard terminology. It's just that there are lot of people that find programming to be a game.

Which is fine as long as you recognize that that's what you're doing w/ it.

If you want to be serious, there is an awful lot to learn. And I find it hard to accept those same people coming into the workforce, claiming to be gurus, when they don't have a clue who Knuth, Sedgewick, or Stroustrup are. I'm not bashing anyone here. I'm referring to acquaintances of mine.

As for one of the other comments, I'm not trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I have a job today because of it. Personally, I would much rather create new and wonderful things, but so long as there are people out there wanting to skip all the boring steps, I get stuck fixing their mess because I can.

Hey, I'm not complaining seeing as I get paid for it. But don't you think we would be so much further if everyone was operating at the potential and not just at 'good enough' to get by?

I dunno. Just curious.

As for contests - they're good for creativity. But I do not like the idea of a watered down contest for newbies.

That would mean we would have to have one level where being able to do a "Hello world" app would be a contest winner.

However, to do a "Hello world" app in the shortest number fo lines that could create itself, that would be a contest worth doing. And has been done in C and C++. Many times w/ many different solution.s

I hope I'm making my point clear, and not just going in circles, but I'll quit now before I get any more confused. It's late. I need sleep.

Personally, I would like to take a step back and dismantle the winning code from each of the contests in a tutorial.

I have gone through some of them and some of the design I find very elegant. Other times, I wonder whether there was a lack of sleep involved. Or perhaps a lack of experience or theory. In the same program no less.

Oh well. Guess it just goes to show you, that sleep is a good thing.

Good night.

Shamim

Taking the winning code and making a tutorial would be good as I don't understand most of it.

I also agree with not making any more helloworld apps.

Maybe have two deadlines for some contests. One for the more experienced as is now, and one that is maybe a month long for people like me who would have to do a lot of research and reading in order to accomplish the same thing.

I think that idea flows along more with what Shamim is saying and is more along with what I think I meant in the beginning.

With the most recent maze contest as soon as I looked at the first line of the maze field I knew that I would have to do some parsing of the file, but i didn't even know where to start.

Does all that make sense Matt? I hope so

What I find most interesting about this site is what is said by anonymous posters...

If you have the guts to say it online you should have the guts to announce who you are.

In certain circles I've been called a guru, although in those same circles I publicly denounced that fact. I know little, however, I am serious about learning. I spend at least 2 hours or more per night working in php. My real job has nothing to do with php. And yes, I've met CS grads that I feel know nothing. Bottom line comes down to a desire to learn. The best programmers I know work on things even when they aren't paid for their work. Just to gain knowledge...

Hear hear, Brian.

As for anonymous posting, I don't have a valid account here. But my first post had my email address.

I was just too lazy to post it all over again.

As they say, RTFM?

I read everything I get my hands on, so I know where you're coming from.

As for what my background is:

Operating Systems, compilers, architecture, optimization, and databases is primarily what I went to school for, but that was after I had been working for the government, right out of high school.

I knew I didn't know enough, but I knew I wanted to learn.

But that was a long time ago.

I applaud you Brian. That's the kind of attitude I like to see.

As for Will - you're right. Two deadlines would be much more helpful than a separate contest altogether.

But how do you prove whether you're a newbie or a seasoned programmer???

Shamim (read up for my email address, it's up there).

Shamim wrote:
But how do you prove whether you're a newbie or a seasoned programmer???
----
Hrm.. that seems to be the eternal question throughout this thread. And one which I think isn't easily answered.

The only way I can think of solving it is for the newbie deadline there is no other prize than just being able to say, "I won!" and getting maybe a small little banner to put on your personal site or whatever as a trophy.

I'm all about positive reinforcement.

Thanks everyone for your feedback. This is great.

Knuth, Sedgewick, or Stroustrup - Just out of interest, are they the people who originally created C/C++?

Anyway - with the contest, I can't learn about something that I have no need to know. Thats why I gave up trying to get good with VB, I just can't find any practical application for it in my present position.

I need the challenge of doing something to acually learn how to do it. For example, I am particularly disappointed that I have been unable to enter the recent contest (I have 5 Science papers to sit on tue) - as, so far I have never needed (or been able to because of the server) to use GD. The latest contest would have given me a good reason to learn it and a application to give me a basis for learning it (I would use the manual to slowly look up the functions as I needed them).

As for the Beginner contest - I don't honestly know if I am a beginner or not. Personally, I would look at the question and if I was able to solve it by reciting code... I wouldn't enter, but if I would have to think - I would enter.

CJRobs

Hot discussions re here, hun?

Well, from PHP Beginner experience I know that newbies like just about anything that challenges their newly aquired skills. That is very importaant for them.

I think the Beginner code contest should be done, but we should be very clever not enthusiasting anybody else but only the newbies to participate so they know they compete between the equal programmers.

This is what we all should be discussing here.

Maxim,

Having read through some of the suggestions, I would disagree.

Like you said yourself ANYTHING that challenges a newbie is good. (Generalities are always interesting in that they're like swiss cheese).

By your definition, and by following the statements of a number of individuals, the general consensus is more that the full-fledged contest BE the reward and the incentive for newbies.

Don't just give them something to make them feel good.

I would suggest a second deadline after the first, at which point hints would be given out to the newbies on how best to approach the current contest.

Unguided learning in general fosters undisciplined thinking whereas a little guidance can short-circuit a lot of bad habits and teach good one's without stifling.

Let's combine the tutorial concept w/ an extended deadlnie for newbies - newbies would be given hints as part of a tutorial, but would still participate in the regular contest, at a slower pace, and for recognition and the eventual goal of being able to participate in the full-blown contest.

That way there is no need to differentiate between a novice and an expert. The process alone will weed them out.

And the novie gains the benefit of the experience of the experts without being stifled into creativity-death.

Thoughts? Rebuttals?

Shamim Islam
shamim@poetryunlimited.com

P.S. Maxim - you should see the wide-range of self-taught talent - some is really good, and some is really poor for a lack of a guide. Hints and tutorials will only help those that need them. A separate contest is just a feel good pill.

P.P.S. Knuth - the father of algorithms. Sedgewick - the father of amortization calculations in computing, Stroustrup - author of C++. (I'm oversimplifying but I can't recite their contributions in one posting).

Shamim,

you might be right about that. But, remember ... When you ge asked for a service you should provide the service, this is how you help.

We can always follow up on the contests by cub-contests - that is a good idea, agreed.

I see this way too often and since this discussion has taken a left turn, I fugure why not.

C is not C++ and vice versa! You can know one and not have a clue what to do in the other.

And for the individuals who are responsible for C (those that you should be bowing down to and not some penguin) they are Ken Thompson, Dennis Ritchie and Brian Kernighan.

Some dates (to the best of my knowledge):
'69 Birth of Unix (Thompson and Richie)
'72 Birth of C (Ritchie ... C's ancestors were B and BCPL)
'73 Unix Kernal written in C (Thompson)
'78 The C Programming Language aka "The white book" (Ritchie and Kernighan)

Everything stems from C (ok, 99.9%). PHP core is C, VB was created in C, etc.

Learn C, learn C ... don't get me wrong I love PHP but learn C. Understanding C will further help you understand alot of other things and why things are the way they are.

Just a thought.

Hear, Hear!

This is the first time I have visited this site, so im not going to register. If I come back later and still like the site, or want to enter the contest, then I will register.

About the separating the beginners, and the experts, I suggest this.
I like the idea of registering with some kind of profile, but that probably still not solve the problem.
If you were to extend the contest, that would probably be the best idea. Im not sure if you do this, but you probably shouldnt release the source code from the expert winner until after the beginners contest is over.
Also, if you win a beginners contest, you should not be allowed to enter again.
If you can win, that means you need a harder challenge.

Just a lil thought.
c-ya, Rick (indysbest.com[under construction])

Surely, there should just be a rating system so that members can "rate" the scripts of each of his/her "peers". Those marks would then co-inside with the "ratings" of the author. If one were to have a rating below 5, for example, one would be considered a "beginner". Or, even simpler. One could just directly rate a member.

What do you think?

An easy method of preventing someone from cleaning house is that once you win, you have to move up to the "expert" contest. Someone could change identities for each contest, but most experts wouldn't expend the effort and would be recognizable by the code.